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December 20, 2023
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3115/mark-to-mark day trader

  • December 20, 2023
  • 2 replies
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Hi, I want to start day trading 1/1/2024 , should I file 3115 through my 2023 tax return? I already read 3115 instruction so confused regarding preceding year and before tax due date so please just give the answer by YES or NO and example with year like 2024, 2023, ..... and due date. If I want to have extension for 2023 when should file 3115? Around 16 OCT or April 15 2024?

question 2:

If I have had a loss $10000 for day trading in 2023; and never filed 3115, what can I do? Please just give me the answer and do not copy paste the instruction since I already read it but did not get it.

    Best answer by Rick19744

    A few comments addressing your specific questions (and maybe a few additional comments):

    • You cannot elect MTM for 2023.
    • If you want to make a MTM election for 2024 you must do so by the original due date of the 2023 tax return; prospective only.
    • Your trading activity for 2023 is treated just as any other capital investments
    • If you are struggling here, I am going to recommend that you have a tax professional prepare your tax return if you are day trading.
    • As noted by @Anonymous_ , you can be a day trader and not have a MTM election
    • You need to make sure you qualify for trader tax status (TTS) before you make any MTM election.
    • Once you make the MTM election, you need permission to revoke the election
    • This is a highly scrutinized area

    2 replies

    Employee
    December 20, 2023

    Are you certain you want to make an MTM election? I suspect you understand that you don't need to file a 3115 to trader status alone.

     

    I will page Champ @Mike9241 

    Sam HopiAuthor
    December 22, 2023

    Thanks , I did not understand what you meant. Any want to be as day trader for 2024 should file 3115 along with tax return 2023 . Is this right?

    I want to start day trading 1/1/2024 , should I file 3115 through my 2023 tax return? I already read 3115 instruction so confused regarding preceding year and before tax due date so please just give the answer by YES or NO and example with year like 2024, 2023, ..... and due date. If I want to have extension for 2023 when should file 3115? Around 16 OCT or April 15 2024?

    question 2:

    If I have had a loss $10000 for day trading in 2023; and never filed 3115, what can I do? Please just give me the answer and do not copy paste the instruction since I already read it but did not get it.

    Employee
    December 22, 2023

    Read @Rick19744's post again and note:

     

    • If you want to make a MTM election for 2024 you must do so by the original due date of the 2023 tax return; prospective only.

    Again note that you do not have to file a 3115 for trader status; only if you want to make an MTM election.

    Rick19744
    Rick19744Answer
    Employee
    December 21, 2023

    A few comments addressing your specific questions (and maybe a few additional comments):

    • You cannot elect MTM for 2023.
    • If you want to make a MTM election for 2024 you must do so by the original due date of the 2023 tax return; prospective only.
    • Your trading activity for 2023 is treated just as any other capital investments
    • If you are struggling here, I am going to recommend that you have a tax professional prepare your tax return if you are day trading.
    • As noted by @Anonymous_ , you can be a day trader and not have a MTM election
    • You need to make sure you qualify for trader tax status (TTS) before you make any MTM election.
    • Once you make the MTM election, you need permission to revoke the election
    • This is a highly scrutinized area
    *A reminder that posts in a forum such as this do not constitute tax advice.Also keep in mind the date of replies, as tax law changes.
    Sam HopiAuthor
    December 22, 2023

    Thanks but I did not get my answerers.

    December 22, 2023

    From IRS PUB 550

    Special Rules for
    Traders in Securities
    or Commodities
    Special rules apply if you are a trader in securities or commodities in the business of buying
    and selling securities or commodities for your
    own account. To be engaged in business as a
    trader in securities or commodities, you must
    meet all the following conditions.
    • You must seek to profit from daily market
    movements in the prices of securities or
    commodities and not from dividends, interest, or capital appreciation.
    • Your activity must be substantial.
    • You must carry on the activity with continuity and regularity.
    The following facts and circumstances
    should be considered in determining if your activity is a securities or commodities trading business.
    • Typical holding periods for securities or
    commodities bought and sold.
    • The frequency and dollar amount of your
    trades during the year.
    • The extent to which you pursue the activity
    to produce income for a livelihood.
    • The amount of time you devote to the activity.
    If your trading activities do not meet the
    above definition of a business, you are considered an investor, and not a trader. It does not
    matter whether you call yourself a trader or a “day trader.”
    How To Report
    Transactions from trading activities result in capital gains and losses (unless a Trader makes a section
    475(f) election) and must be reported on Form 8949 and Schedule D (Form
    1040), as appropriate. Losses from these transactions are subject to the limit on capital losses
    and the wash sale rules.
    if you qualify as a trader you can make the Mark-to-market election (not required). If you made
    the section 475(f) mark-to-market election, you should report all gains and losses from trading
    as ordinary gains and losses in Part II of Form 4797, instead of as capital gains and losses on
    Form 8949 and Schedule D (Form 1040). Also, the wash sale rules do not apply. In that case, securities or commodities (depending upon which election was made) held at the end of the year in your business as a trader are marked to market by treating them as if they were sold for fair market value on the last business day of the year and gain or loss is recognized. But you do not mark-to-market any securities or commodities you held for investment. Report sales from those securities or commodities on
    Form 8949 and Schedule D (Form 1040), as appropriate, not Form 4797. 
    Note. You may be a trader in some securities or commodities and have some securities
    or commodities that are not held in connection with your activities as a trader, such as those
    held for investment. The special rules for marking to market discussed here do not apply to the
    securities or commodities held for investment. You must keep detailed records to distinguish
    those securities or commodities. The securities or commodities held for investment must be
    identified as such in your records on the day you acquired them (for example, by holding
    them in a separate brokerage account) specifically identified under section 475.
    Expenses. Interest expense and other investment expenses that an investor would deduct
    on Schedule A (Form 1040) are deducted by a
    trader on Schedule C (Form 1040), Profit or
    Loss From Business, if the expenses are from
    the trading business. Commissions and other
    costs of acquiring or disposing of securities or
    commodities (depending upon which election
    was made) are not deductible but must be used
    to figure gain or loss. The limit on investment interest expense, which applies to investors,
    does not apply to interest paid or incurred in a
    trading business.
    Self-employment tax. Gains and losses from
    selling securities or commodities as a trader are
    not subject to self-employment tax. This is true
    whether the election is made or not.

     

     

    note that form 3115 is not required if the 475(f) election is made for the trader's first year of business. REV PROC 2023-24